Wednesday, February 22, 2006
More On Co-ops
You may be surprised to learn that I've softened on co-ops even more. Mostly, it is due to those people who shared their stories of their co-ops - how they've enjoyed showing more, how their friendships have grown, how they are more interested in their hobby than they were before, and so forth. I can really support those motivations for co-oping.
I would like to see the HLRSC form a committee on co-ops, though. The purpose of the committee would be to facilitate the forming and amiable dissolution of co-ops. They would neither encourage nor discourage members to form co-ops - just make co-oping a better experience for all.
Let me explain. I was aware of a co-op that formed but didn't seem to understand the ARBA rules for rabbit ownership. They reported that they had asked the HLRSC what they needed to do and were satisfied that they need only advise the HLRSC sweeps secretary of their decision. But ARBA rules always apply first and ARBA requires a rabbit to be owned by every person whose name it is being shown under.
Also, there have been co-ops that have ended badly. There is disagreement over who owns which rabbit, who owes money to whom, items not returned, and so forth.
And again, co-ops are faced with decisions they did not anticipate when they first formed. Co-ops can be formed in the excitement of producing better rabbits together, enjoying the company and teamwork, and doing better in the sweeps. Perhaps little or no thought is given to the really hard questions. What if the co-op sells a rabbit jointly, then the new owner has a problem with it. Everything may be fine if the co-op agrees on how to resolve the problem, but what if they do not see things the same way?
Now you may say that none of these situations should be anyone's business except the co-ops. You are entitled to that opinion, of course. But every member can be affected:
I would suggest that a committee on co-ops could develop an application and orientation package of information for co-ops. When breeders applied to be a co-op, they could receive all of the rules with explanations. They would know and sign off on both the rules for forming a co-op (such as jointly registering rabbits) and for the dissolution of one. They would be advised what happens to their individual points they had before the co-op is formed, and what happens to their points if the co-op dissolves in the middle of a sweeps year.
The application would also standardize the way that the sweeps secretary is informed of the co-op and would provide the address that the co-op operates under (and therefore which district the points are applied to, for co-ops that span two or more districts).
The committee could also develop a boilerplate agreement where prospective co-op members could pick the ways they want to operate their co-op. Here are some examples:
I would like to see the HLRSC form a committee on co-ops, though. The purpose of the committee would be to facilitate the forming and amiable dissolution of co-ops. They would neither encourage nor discourage members to form co-ops - just make co-oping a better experience for all.
Let me explain. I was aware of a co-op that formed but didn't seem to understand the ARBA rules for rabbit ownership. They reported that they had asked the HLRSC what they needed to do and were satisfied that they need only advise the HLRSC sweeps secretary of their decision. But ARBA rules always apply first and ARBA requires a rabbit to be owned by every person whose name it is being shown under.
Also, there have been co-ops that have ended badly. There is disagreement over who owns which rabbit, who owes money to whom, items not returned, and so forth.
And again, co-ops are faced with decisions they did not anticipate when they first formed. Co-ops can be formed in the excitement of producing better rabbits together, enjoying the company and teamwork, and doing better in the sweeps. Perhaps little or no thought is given to the really hard questions. What if the co-op sells a rabbit jointly, then the new owner has a problem with it. Everything may be fine if the co-op agrees on how to resolve the problem, but what if they do not see things the same way?
Now you may say that none of these situations should be anyone's business except the co-ops. You are entitled to that opinion, of course. But every member can be affected:
- when a co-op is showing rabbits illegally (not owned by all partners - to me, if the co-op doesn't want to commit to their co-op enough to re-register their rabbits in all names and really be one entity, they are just adding their points together for an unfair advantage),
- when co-op members are out of sorts with each other and their conflict depresses the entire group of exhibitors;
- when a co-op can't arrive at a reasonable solution to a sale gone wrong because there are two people to deal with who disagree, or
- when the hobby loses breeders because of co-ops gone sour.
I would suggest that a committee on co-ops could develop an application and orientation package of information for co-ops. When breeders applied to be a co-op, they could receive all of the rules with explanations. They would know and sign off on both the rules for forming a co-op (such as jointly registering rabbits) and for the dissolution of one. They would be advised what happens to their individual points they had before the co-op is formed, and what happens to their points if the co-op dissolves in the middle of a sweeps year.
The application would also standardize the way that the sweeps secretary is informed of the co-op and would provide the address that the co-op operates under (and therefore which district the points are applied to, for co-ops that span two or more districts).
The committee could also develop a boilerplate agreement where prospective co-op members could pick the ways they want to operate their co-op. Here are some examples:
- Rabbits owned by one member prior to the co-op will/will not revert to the property of that member should the co-op dissolve.
- Rabbits produced by the co-op will have the following prefix ______________.
- Prices for sale rabbits will be determined jointly/by the original owner of the dam/by the original owner of the sire/other ______________________________.
- Co-op members may/may not show at separate shows on the same date.
- Refunds or other adjustments for sales problems will be made only if both members agree/as determined by the prior owner of the dam/as determined by the prior owner of the sire/by the member who negotiated the sale/other__________________________.
- Entry fees will be evenly divided/prorated according to the number of rabbits each member wants to sponsor for a given show/other______________________.
There are many, many more issues that could be listed. These items are for example only and may not be the best examples available. But I hope you get the idea. The real items in the boilerplate would be created by people who have had experience with co-ops and really know where the sticking points are. It would be wonderful if new co-ops could benefit from the collective experiences of those who have experienced co-ops before them.
I would also love to see the application give members the option to agree to arbitration, should they dissolve their co-op and be unable to divide the herd and jointly owned equipment in a mutually satisfactory way. The HLRSC committee could serve as arbiters, hearing both sides and making a decision, which the members would already have agreed to abide by.
A co-op is a lot like a marriage, from what I observe. Partners or groups go into it with excitement and enthusiasm. Probably most have a bumpy time of it at some point. Some co-ops adjust and become very successful. Others hit a snag they cannot overcome and decide to dissolve.
Like marriage, co-ops could probably use some pre-co-op counseling and a pre-nup agreement! I don't know whether the HLRSC would ever consider forming such a committee. Perhaps even without a committee, an application at least could be created that would ensure that those interested in forming a co-op would know all of the rules and procedures involved. No one should get to the end of a co-op and find out the hard way that they cannot continue to build on the points they accumulated before the dissolution.
Laurie Stroupe
The Nature Trail Rabbitry
Holland Lops Of Distinction
Precious Pet Rabbits
Pet Rabbit Care Information, Quality Pet Rabbit Breeders, and Rabbit Fun
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Still complaining about co-ops? I'd recommend spending more time studying up on the breed you raise before you become a registrar. Writing blogs consisting of information you gather from other breeders and the remarks left on your comment cards from arba judges doesn't count towards being a knowledgable breeder. Booksmart VS hands-on. Which one are you?
I can't see how Laurie's post could be construed as complaining about co-ops. She raises many valid points, in a positive manner. "I can really support those motivations for co-oping."
How is that negative?
Laurie is a very knowledgable breeder IMO. She thinks things through, plans very effectively and is seeing the fruits of her labor in the consistently nice stock she is producing. Hands-on vs. booksmart - you CAN be both.
How is that negative?
Laurie is a very knowledgable breeder IMO. She thinks things through, plans very effectively and is seeing the fruits of her labor in the consistently nice stock she is producing. Hands-on vs. booksmart - you CAN be both.
First thing I guess I would like to say is if you do not like Laurie's blogs then do not read them.
I would really like to know why you think Laurie is complaining about co-ops. What in this blog leads you to believe she is complaining?
As for the comment you made about her becoming a registrar that was rude and very childish IMO.
For someone to become some irate about a simple blog concerning co-ops it makes me wonder if you are happy in your co-op.
JMHO
I would really like to know why you think Laurie is complaining about co-ops. What in this blog leads you to believe she is complaining?
As for the comment you made about her becoming a registrar that was rude and very childish IMO.
For someone to become some irate about a simple blog concerning co-ops it makes me wonder if you are happy in your co-op.
JMHO
I read Laurie's Blog, and IMO, it does raise some very valid points that have been very well thought out. Should a Co-op disintergrate, who would get custody of the stock, and the supplies? Should both parties keep all sales receipts, just in case it doesn't work out? How many people would love to save expensive lawyer fees by having a type of pre co-op agreement written up before the joining? I did learn alot about Co-ops by reading ARBA, and Laurie's blog. But alot of essentials are left up to individuals that could cause alot of strife in the future. Good job Laurie!! And thanks for the tip you gave me awhile back. You're awesome. You're notin it for the money or points/prestige. You're in it for the fun and to better the holland breed. As well as to show the newer people it's not all cut throat, that some people really do put people first. IMO, that is exactly the kind of registar we need more of. You go girl!!
Jenna
Reply to Jenna
For such a sweet girl you sure have released a lot of vemon here. Maybe you are defensive because others have attacked your decision to be in a Co-op with Tracy. Honey that has nothing to do with the Co-op idea but rather with the way that people have been treated by Tracy.
People are nervous about Co-ops and I believed that Laurie was trying to bridge the gap between the two. She is intelligent, well-spoken, and has a lot of common sense. As far as her learning Holland Lops: I would think her consist placing on the tables is proof enough of that. Seems like she took first quite a bit even when even Tracy's and your bunnies where on the table. So either she knows as much as you do, or you know as little as she. Which would that be?
Jenna, you are young, beautful, and smart. Please lets hope that you think for yourself not through a filter of what someone else might think. Laurie is not the enemy. And this is her site, her BLOG, her thoughts. It is her God given right to have one. She did not go on the main groups and attack anyone so it is very bad form to come on her site and attack her. Lucky for you that Laurie is a mom, and with an apology for venting at her she will still be your friend. So be the good person we know that you are and BE NICE. Remember what Thumper said, " If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Keep up the good work Laurie. Candace
Reply to Jenna
For such a sweet girl you sure have released a lot of vemon here. Maybe you are defensive because others have attacked your decision to be in a Co-op with Tracy. Honey that has nothing to do with the Co-op idea but rather with the way that people have been treated by Tracy.
People are nervous about Co-ops and I believed that Laurie was trying to bridge the gap between the two. She is intelligent, well-spoken, and has a lot of common sense. As far as her learning Holland Lops: I would think her consist placing on the tables is proof enough of that. Seems like she took first quite a bit even when even Tracy's and your bunnies where on the table. So either she knows as much as you do, or you know as little as she. Which would that be?
Jenna, you are young, beautful, and smart. Please lets hope that you think for yourself not through a filter of what someone else might think. Laurie is not the enemy. And this is her site, her BLOG, her thoughts. It is her God given right to have one. She did not go on the main groups and attack anyone so it is very bad form to come on her site and attack her. Lucky for you that Laurie is a mom, and with an apology for venting at her she will still be your friend. So be the good person we know that you are and BE NICE. Remember what Thumper said, " If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all." Keep up the good work Laurie. Candace
Can't we all just get along?? As far as those of you who are worried about the "pre nups" that should be aggreed upon by co ops, can I ask why you are worried about this?? Everything in our co op was carefully thought out and aggreed upon before hand. There was no need for a written document, as everything was agreed upon with no conflict. Added to the fact that we are not planning to dissolve any time soon. I am sure the other co ops carefully thought everything out as well. Really, they would be stupid not to. And based on the breeders who have formed a co op, I seriously doubt any of them will be getting out anytime soon. As someone put it in an email, ARBA and HLRSC are clubs, not babysitters. And as far as the registrations, why is this such an issue?? Yes all of ours have been transferred, not all sent in, but the proper signatures and dates are in place. Personally I am behind in registrations, at last count there were 5 animals that could be granded. Does this mean we are showing these animals illegally just because they are not registered?? Nope-there are no rules that say an animal has to be registered the day they turn 6 months old. That is just not something I really care about. I just don't have time to track down registrars-Brenda can do all of ours and I have a judge 10 min from my house who has done them all in the past. I am more concerned with said rabbits ability to continue to show well and ultimately reproduce than I am with having someone else tell me, "yup-no DQ's on this one-I guess the 20 legs are valid" Just to keep the "lynch mob" happy that I am following all ownership rules with our animals. Does this mean we are obsessed with points and sweepstakes, and are creating an unfair advantage by not having our animals registered? Nope. We really need to stop the he said she said crap and the undermining trying to figure out ways to make the co ops dissolve or look bad, when all we as the co ops are doing is working together with a very good friend to improve on something that we all love. And as far as Jenna's comment, yes it was harsh and probably not well thought out, but I think that I can speak for all of us in a co op and say that this has not been an easy transformation. Personanlly it has been great, but we have undergone so much criticism from others, from having great friends at shows, to people who simply will not speak to us, or are just plain mean because they do not like or do not agree with what we are doing. So that is hard, and thruthfully, it hurts. So what is our natural reaction when we are hurt or mad? to fly off the handle and be mean back. This does not solve anything, just makes it worse.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and Laurie is entitled to her thoughts in her BLOG on her website (thanks Laurie, for not posting this all over the internet on the groups) but we all need to remember that no one aggrees on everything and that we should respect others opinions even when they differ from our own.
Everyone is entitled to an opinion, and Laurie is entitled to her thoughts in her BLOG on her website (thanks Laurie, for not posting this all over the internet on the groups) but we all need to remember that no one aggrees on everything and that we should respect others opinions even when they differ from our own.
Hello,
I dont think anyone should attack anyone about the coop issue. This is not a contact sport. It is supposed to be friends getting together to show their rabbits. I myself belong to a coop and we are haveing the time of our lives. We try to teach whenever we can and I am sure the others in coops are doing the same thing. This is a hobby where you are supposed to have fun NOT STRESS. Have fun with it and do your best. No matter what you are going to get beat by the same rabbit no matter who owns the rabbit. If it is nice it should be on the table. Until you get an animal that can beat the winning rabbit can you say you have improved your line. Imagine the pride you will have when you do beat the Top Lop for a leg or more. Take pride in your line and have fun. Dont worry about what name is on the remark card.
Just my thoughts.
Brenda Dumas
Dumabroo Bunnies
I dont think anyone should attack anyone about the coop issue. This is not a contact sport. It is supposed to be friends getting together to show their rabbits. I myself belong to a coop and we are haveing the time of our lives. We try to teach whenever we can and I am sure the others in coops are doing the same thing. This is a hobby where you are supposed to have fun NOT STRESS. Have fun with it and do your best. No matter what you are going to get beat by the same rabbit no matter who owns the rabbit. If it is nice it should be on the table. Until you get an animal that can beat the winning rabbit can you say you have improved your line. Imagine the pride you will have when you do beat the Top Lop for a leg or more. Take pride in your line and have fun. Dont worry about what name is on the remark card.
Just my thoughts.
Brenda Dumas
Dumabroo Bunnies
I recently began showing hollands again after four or five years after I finished college. I have been reading this BLOG almost everyday since Laurie started it. I do not know any one on here other than what I have read on websites from across the country. From what I can gather Laurie's website is very helpful and easy to use. I have read this BLOG on Coops as well as other websites and I don't understand where the idea that she was attacking coops came from in this post. She starts out by saying her idea of coops is slightly different from her first perceptions. When starting new partnerships everybody thinks that it will always work out for the good. However, way to often do unforeseen circumstance pop up that cause fights and arguments that end a partnership. For that reason I agree that things should be in writing. Do I side with either side, no, I don't know enought one way or another. I can see the pros and the cons of both sides. As a new member of the HLRSC and other clubs, it kind of scares me to think that people want to fight over things like this. I thought we were all entitled to our own opinions. Maybe not.
From my understanding coops are alot like the teams that have been found in the mini lop club. I used to raise mini's when I showed as a youth and their was always a seperate listing of points for teams. If memory serves me correctly the teams in the mini lop club compete seperatly. If it is true that we should not be worried about points then what is the fear in having seperate categories for each. I know I read that if you were showing as a team you were to let the sweepstakes chair know.
Like I said I am still new to all of this. My opinion really doesn't matter that much. However, I certainly know that I will be doing more research on the whole coop thing.
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From my understanding coops are alot like the teams that have been found in the mini lop club. I used to raise mini's when I showed as a youth and their was always a seperate listing of points for teams. If memory serves me correctly the teams in the mini lop club compete seperatly. If it is true that we should not be worried about points then what is the fear in having seperate categories for each. I know I read that if you were showing as a team you were to let the sweepstakes chair know.
Like I said I am still new to all of this. My opinion really doesn't matter that much. However, I certainly know that I will be doing more research on the whole coop thing.
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